More Food for Thought

Well ya'll wanted a topic that would spark lots of typing... well I know this will. Jess, one of your comments got me thinking, you said in our last heated topic:

Jesse wrote:

I was just thinking along the lines of there are very few people that discipline correctly (not in anger) and therefore it's more abuse than discipline. That's why I say the whole thing has actually come down to it being the adults/parents faults anyway. Few adults actually discipline in a constructive way anymore.

This got me thinking about home school, is it good or bad? These days parents like you said can hardly teach their own kids basic obediance, how are they supposed to teach them school and the basics they will need for the rest of their life? So for the basis of our discussion we are going to say that we are going to compare home school vs. private christian school. This way the religious aspect is covered on both sides.
So lets answer some questions?
1. Pick a side, home school (HS) or Private Christian School (PCS)
2. Then tell us why.
3. Are there any acceptions to your side?

Homeschool, personally, is what side i choose, but i don't think for a second that its for everyone. Because it most certainly is not.
But i wanted to homeschool because i didn't want my child going to a place with a bunch of strangers teaching him what THEY want him to know. And i want to keep him innocent as long as i possibly can, that doesn't usually happen if a child goes to school.
Plus, Christian based schools are often where you find the worst kids. Parents send them there to straighten them out when all they end up doing is corrupting the other "decent" kids. I know this from my "sister" who went to New Life Christian Academy. I visted there often and found the kids worse(aka cussing, drugs, ludeness, all around not what i would want my kid around) than at Cumberland.
But like i said, not every parent and not every child can do homeschool. It can be very hard, but we are trying it because thats what we feel lead to do. My brothers would never have been good at homeschool because they were more socially inclined than i was/am. But i flourished in it.
In closing; its not for everyone but thats what i chose.

Good question Brian

Well I opened the question, guess I best state my thoughts on the whole idea. Personally I'm for PCS.
Growning up in MI which is one of our churchs most conservative conference, I have seen all the different sides of this topic. I was never home schooled, but I had cousins that did. Which I believe is one of my largest hang up on HS, Social Skills of the HS kids. I under stand that I'm married to a HS, and I also totally agree there are exceptions to this rule, but I believe that the very large majority of HS kids have under developed social skills. With the lack of other child interaction at home, they tend to not mix well with others as they grow up. My second hang up is the actuall education. In PCS there are usually teachers that are experts/pro's in their subject. They know the topic and can teach it better then a text book can. They can give real life examples of what they are teaching, practical applications go a long way with learning. With HS I believe the knowlege isn't there, granted a parent might be great at Math or an other subject, but they aren't experts at every subject, and therefore can't provide the examples and the real life applications needed to learn.
My last and I think most important reason for PCS is the Real life learning experences. Everyone always says, learn from others mistakes, and experence comes from lots of failure. Unfortunatly I have to agree partly with Beth, there are bad kids that do attend PCS and there is sometime drugs and other things we want to keep our kids away from. But I completely disagree with the statement that our christan schools are worse then public schools. In PCS prayer is openly practiced, and although there are some bad beans, there are alot more christian minded kids. Also, I have some/many great stories and memories about my school years that I wouldn't trade for the world. Memories I could never have had staying at home doing HS.

Although I personally believe that PCS is better for most situations, but I'm not saying that its the best for ever situation. I just feel that if its at all possible then its a better choice.

Hmm, well.

First and foremost, I must say, homeschool (HS) is not for everyone. And, thanks to moving, low education standards in Counties, and my parents, I can say that I have experienced every school alternative out there.

Personally, my favorite was HS, simply because I was allowed to function at my own pace most of the time. I am not a fan of the organized groups, do not enjoy planned activities, such as sports or KONOS, but I will admit, they were a learning experience.

As far as private Christian schools (PCSs) go, I was in one from K-2 and then again for 2 years of college. And I can honestly say that I do not remember any of my elementary grade classmates cursing, being lewd, picking fights, or being outrageously mean. At the same time, there were many who participated in drinking, smoking, bar hopping, etc., during my tenure at Southern. This is not to say that all, or even the majority participated in this type of behavior. None of the people that I "hung out with" at least.

While the argument of our schools being worse than public is one that is voiced a lot, I think a lot of it depends on what you are there for. If you are at a PCS simply to gain an education, strengthen your walk with God, and make friends, that is what you will find. If you are there against your will, most likely you will find whatever you can to "voice" your rebellion.

This is a discussion that Brian and I have had several times. And, honestly, we haven't reached a conclusion. I guess my biggest hangup with PCSs is the cost. I don't think it is right for parents to go into debt, simply for their children to attend a PCS. I think it is a decision that needs to be made by both parents, and that both parents need to be on board - without one domineering the situation.

After all, we are taught to train our (speaking figuratively here) children in the way of the Lord - to many, this is best accomplished in the home. To others, who may not feel confident in their abilities to train and educate their children, this may be done best in a PCS.

It's a matter of prayer - not one that, I think, can be decided as an overall blanket for all situations.

All good points.
Homeschool is what worked for me. Thats all i can say.
As far as Duncan, Brandon and i have prayed fervently about this for 4 years and always came back to the same thing.
Our only choices are Cumberland, Powhatan, New Life and Fuqua...i would not send a FLY to any of those, much less my son.
If any of you can find us a good Adventist based school within an hour of our home, i would be happy to check it out.
I have found a couple Adventist based homeschool groups in the area and plan on getting involved with those.
My niece wanted me to say this about the social part.."Thats why they made Myspace." HAHA...shes a trip and a half. By the way...her bro, my nephew was homeschooled for his last year. They go to Cumberland and he was failing horribly. My bro Mike put him in Online Education and he finished his last year of school in 6 months and with straight A's. But Ashley is a soial butterfly and would not have done well in it.
I agree, not all parents can educate their kids, i'm one of them. I know i have it covered up until about 4th or 5th grade, after that, i'm enrolling him in online education where he will have REAL teachers and a different one for each subject too! With technology today, i can have cyber people educate him .
Anyhoo...

P.S. Amanda, i agree wholeheartedly with your statement about the cost of PCS's. They are horribly over priced. We would end up with a loan the size of our mortgage if we sent him to one and I would have to get two jobs just to pay the danggummit loan

My turn to chime in? Looking at it from a personal point of view as an Adventist mom. I desire to be able to teach Gideon all the way through even if it means reschooling myself in some areas. I don't fool myself into thinking it will be easy at all but I'm up for the challenge.

If we lived somewhere that put us near a nice, small adventist church school I would not be against letting Gideon attend it (if he wanted to) as long as I could be there during the day working as well, even if it was in the lunch room. Not b/c I want to be an overbearing parent but he is the charge that God has given Gavin and I and I would like to be able to check in on him. But I would certainly plan on keeping him home until age 10-13.

Why at home, b/c I think that the parents are the best and preferred influence God has for our children (remember I'm assuming we're talking about good, God fearing parents). I talked to parents, Christian and non that don't like there kids in public school but are afraid to homeschool b/c they don't want there kids to lose out on the social part. I think that's a bunch of bull... I think a little of it is the parents wanting there kids to have a little fun (like they probably did) and get into some "worldly" trouble. There are plenty of ways to socialize your kids w/o putting them into a den of demons. It's a matter of the parents caring enough to take them to good places.

I agree though that a teacher at a school is a professional and good at what they do, more so then your regular high school grad parent. I think a parent or parents should do everything in their power to homeschool first. Then if there are learning problems, subject challenges, or parents have to work full time jobs then a PCS is a good second.

It's all about raising your kids the right way at home and preparing them for society. The more years you have of that the better chance you have of them making the right choices later in life. They are going to have to deal with the public and crazy people eventually, you can slowly expose them and guide them as they age... but eventually they will be adults and on there own and all you can do is hope you did the best job you could have and send up lots of prayers for them.......

But yes, HS is the only option we have. I do envy the nice little church school that Wes & Frances have to send their girls to. One teacher and 8 students. And they stay very busy and active in the community.

Jesse wrote:

But yes, HS is the only option we have. I do envy the nice little church school that Wes & Frances have to send their girls to. One teacher and 8 students. And they stay very busy and active in the community.

Me too! I wish we had something like that too. But you know, with our kids plus Ginnys, we got a whole school of our own!
You made a lot of very good points and you were able to put into words the things i couldn't. Thanks Jesse

Okay..I agree with Amanda, I have seen both side of PCS, some students go there and they apparently turn out horribly, and everyone thinks its the school that did that to them, when really-they were like that before, just better at hiding it. I have also seen students go to PCS's and turn into wonderful christian young people who are leaders. Your going to find good and bad in whichever school you send your child too. I personally want to HS, not because I loved it, because it wasn't my favorite thing, I loved going to college and going to the one room PCS I went to for my senior year, I loved knowing what classes were at what time, and deadlines and all. I wasn't dedicated enough to enjoy the HSing, and was a challange to anyone who tried to help me with my math classes So I did enjoy th structure of a classroom setting.
HOWEVER, Jason and I have discussed HS vs. PS, and we have decided to HS our children, we believe between the two of us our children will be okay As for social skills, I have seen HSers with no social skills, and I have seen HSers with great social skills. It really depends on the parents. Jason and I wish to protect our children from the world, but not hide them. There is a difference. I have seen HSers who as soon as their parents turn their backs they are doing exactly what their parents fear. And then those who are the same no matter the situation.

Our ideas of education take too narrow and too low a range. There is need of a broader scope, a higher aim. True education means more than the pursual of a certain course of study. It means more than a preparation for the life that now is. It has to do with the whole being, and with the whole period of existence possible to man. It is the harmonious development of the physical, the mental, and the spiritual powers. It prepares the student for the joy of service in this world and for the higher joy of wider service in the world to come. {Ed 13.1}

Ok, well I am going to jump in here, and before I get started i want to say that it is not my intention to offend anyone, but that I probably will. I also want to say that this is NOT my opinion, but the truth that I have gathered from years of study. As a HSing parent I have considerd it my job and my textbook to study the books: Education, Counsels to Parents, Teachers and Students, Mind Character and Personality, Child Guidance.

Our PCS is in deep apostasy and I do not see how the blessing of GOD can be upon it. EGW was given a vision of what our educational system was to be like and fought for and supported it. 40 years after her death the generations to come were sold into bondage when we sought "accreditation" which she told us NOT to do. So our PCS has sucked up the world's liberal,godless, effeminate, neo-nazi feministic agenda of the NEA. What textbooks do we have in our schools? What kind of classes are being taught? Throw in a bible class, worlds religion and prayer to make it seem like our own.

As you can see I feel very strongly about this. Our people are spiritually weak because our minds have not been fortified with the truth. Brian you stated that you think that the teachers were more qualified to teach your kids because they are the experts. What made them experts? Four years of school? Physcology classes? And whose "life experiences" are they giving to YOUR kids?

If you don't think that you can teach your own children then LEARN. God gave them to us to train, not someone else. If we could all just be what we want our children to be then the rest would be easy.

I have seen too many children that are well educated, polite, helpful, GOD fearing, repectful of their parents and socially well adjusted to know that it can be done. But for those parents it was their JOB. All of them gave up much of their own time and desires to see that their children were taught these things. They have all spent much time with their children, and the investment has payed off.

I know that there are godly teachers, I am not saying that they are in apostasy, but the system that trained them is wrong. It was not and is not GOD's plan for His people. He didn't plan for our kids to be in day care, pre school and then given to someone else to raise for 8 hours.

OK I'll stop, the rant is over....

DMIL

This is how Brandon and i have felt, Lynelle. Why would God give us this beautiful child, this amazing gift, only to turn his care and wellbeing over to someone else all day? He didn't give him to those people, did he? And how do i know what THEY are teaching him? I have always felt strongly that if you cannot care for your own children why have them?
People today tend to only see their kids for a few minutes before school then again for an hour or two before bed...how are they getting in all the teachings and guidance they should be in so little time?
I personally love being able to get up in the morning, have worship with my little one, do an hour of schooling then am able to spend the rest of the day just being with him...whether we go to the park and play, go to town for a mommy-and-me day or if we just piddle around the house. I am able to teach him MORE than just acedemics...i'm able to teach him about LIFE!
Anyway, just wanted to say i agree. I wish we did have alternatives to what we have, but the fact is, we don't, so we must adjust.
I'm not a teacher, but i pray everyday before we do school that God will give me the knowledge i need to help Duncan learn the things he needs to learn and i pray that God will give Duncan a learning spirit...and you know, He has. Duncan has acceled in school! It has only taken him 3 weeks to get a quarter of the way through K4. When were done with the days lesson, he wants more! He has picked up on everything i have taught him way faster than the academics have shown.
Another thing i hate about PS is that if Duncan were going to one, they wouldn't recognize that he's learning faster than other kids, they would just keep him in K4 until the year ended then put him in K5 the next school year. Well i am able to see that he knows most of whats in K4 and he should be in K5 by January and done by June which puts him in 1st grade by next September...1 year ahead of what a school would have him in.
But i do know, that when God gave these little wonders to us for care and guidance, He didn't mean just during the morning and evening.

My car starting having issues on the way in to work this morning, the engine makes noises and there are fluids gushin out of it. Do I fix it or take it to a auto macanic?

I got out of the shower this morning and noticed several large bumps on my chest, there is some red spots next to them and I'm having some problems breathing. Do I take some garlic pills or do I go see a doctor?

Lynelle wrote:

What made them experts?

Well this is a simple, Lynelle answered it for all of us already:

Lynelle wrote:

I also want to say that this is NOT my opinion, but the truth that I have gathered from years of study.

Beth, you said:

Bethie wrote:

They are horribly over priced. We would end up with a loan the size of our mortgage if we sent him to one and i would have to get two jobs just to pay the danggummit loan.

So we will do anything and everything we can as parents to protect and raise them right. Including going with them to school (if they chose to go to school) to make sure nothing happens or goes wrong. Basicly do anything and everything in your powers to raise and protect them, but you won't spend any money on them to get them better educated?

I have thought about this subject for many years, why I don't know really. I think that when it comes down to it for me, I'm not against HS, I'm against MOST of the reasons for doing it. We have friends that are doing HS with their boy because the PCS told them he would have to cut his hair cause it was too long. So they are doing HS so he doesn't have to cut his hair. My cousin did HS because his parents were over protective of him. He never left sight of his mom until he was 16 and got his drivers license. Now he has been divorced several times, has had drug issues and could care less if God exsisted. Then again I'm married to the perfect HS kid, it worked out great for her. I just tend to have a problem with most of the reasoning behind HS. I believe HS has a place for some, but its not the answer for every child.

So...if i HS my son he might end up getting divorced? Not a good reason NOT to do it. I can't see the future, i can only do whats right for us now.
The money thing IS a serious problem. I said what i said because i experienced the problems it causes when your parents have to try to pay for your education. My parents took out new loans every year to pay for my schooling and i saw the problems it caused between them because they simply couldn't pay those loans, i would hope to never have my child see anything like that. We have enough problems with the bills we already have, i can't imagine throwing in another large loan...i don't know exactly what that would do to us. I'm sure God would provide the money, but i'm also sure it would be at the expense of our time with Brandon which we already get so little.
I'm not dumb enough to HS my son just so he doesn't have to cut his hair, thats just ignorant.
And you said what i keep saying...its not for everyone but it works for some. That really should be the end of it.

Bethie wrote:

So...if i HS my son he might end up getting divorced?

I'm not dumb enough to HS my son just so he doesn't have to cut his hair, thats just ignorant.

And you said what i keep saying...its not for everyone but it works for some. That really should be the end of it.

First: I don't think Brian was saying that if you HS your son, he will end up divorced. If you take that statement that literally or interpret it in that way, that would mean that you and Brandon would end up divorced, as well as Brian and me, Jason and Anna, Jared and Ginny, and Gavin and Jesse. What needs to be considered is the message behind what was said - not the literal words or interpretation. As I read it, Brian was simply pointing out that homeschooling does not ensure that your child will grow up perfect. Just because a person is HSed does not necessarily make them any better or worse. It does, however, allow more time for the parents to spend with the child and teach them the values they believe in.

Second: Don't jump to rash conclusions. Simply because a family decides to homeschool their child due to not wanting to force the child to cut his/her hair does not make them any more/less stupid than a family deciding to homeschool simply because they don't like the school system they are lumped into.

We all have values and morals that we cling to. If not giving in to societal pressures is one of them, then this family's decision to HS their children may be a wise move. It's not our place to judge.

Third: This was opened as a debate topic. Not a mean one - just something to be discussed. All opinions are valid and accepted. I say let the conversation run its course.

as i eat my oreos..... yes I like the discussion.. i myself went to public school through 10th grade with all A's & B's and asked my parents if I could homeschool myself 1. b/c I didn't like the atmosphere at school and 2. i wanted more hours to be able to work and earn money.

So Brian what did you do for school? If you already typed it i must not have been reading for comprehension...

Jesse wrote:

So Brian what did you do for school? If you already typed it i must not have been reading for comprehension...

He did both private and public schools......private mostly.

Brian wrote:

My car starting having issues on the way in to work this morning, the engine makes noises and there are fluids gushin out of it. Do I fix it or take it to a auto macanic?

Guess it all depends on how much money or time that you have.... would you use that rationale to decide eternity for your children?



I got out of the shower this morning and noticed several large bumps on my chest, there is some red spots next to them and I'm having some problems breathing. Do I take some garlic pills or do I go see a doctor?

EGW tells us that we are to ascertain the cause of the illness (go and see a DR.) then decide on a course of action.

Lynelle wrote:

What made them experts?

Well this is a simple, Lynelle answered it for all of us already:

Lynelle wrote:

I also want to say that this is NOT my opinion, but the truth that I have gathered from years of study.

No Brian, I did not answer it, GOD has answered it through His servant. Did you read the quote that I put on the top of the last post? Can you pu-leeze tell me what part of PCS prepares children for heaven? I can give you many, many quotes from the Bible and SOP about parents training their children... not someone else.


Beth, you said:

Bethie wrote:

They are horribly over priced. We would end up with a loan the size of our mortgage if we sent him to one and i would have to get two jobs just to pay the danggummit loan.

So we will do anything and everything we can as parents to protect and raise them right. Including going with them to school (if they chose to go to school) to make sure nothing happens or goes wrong. Basicly do anything and everything in your powers to raise and protect them, but you won't spend any money on them to get them better educated?

Again I direct you to the quote at the top of my first answer. Please tell me where it tells us as parents that in order for our children to inherit the kingdom of GOD that they need to be better educated? As you have stated you are married to a "poster child" for homeschooling. Who's decision was it for her to go on to higher learning? Did we (Lee and I) map out this future for her? Nope...her future is her own. She was taught how to learn, how to reason ( another thing that we are told that we MUST teach our children - how to reason from cause to effect...), how to think for herself and NOT be swayed by peer pressure. So did we do a good job? Did she have a "better education?" Probably not by the worlds standards...

I have thought about this subject for many years, why I don't know really. I think that when it comes down to it for me, I'm not against HS, I'm against MOST of the reasons for doing it. We have friends that are doing HS with their boy because the PCS told them he would have to cut his hair cause it was too long. So they are doing HS so he doesn't have to cut his hair. My cousin did HS because his parents were over protective of him. He never left sight of his mom until he was 16 and got his drivers license. Now he has been divorced several times, has had drug issues and could care less if God exsisted. Then again I'm married to the perfect HS kid, it worked out great for her. I just tend to have a problem with most of the reasoning behind HS. I believe HS has a place for some, but its not the answer for every child.

Yep there are losers at every game. Someone always drops the ball. but for every casualty there are more winners. Having a balanced mind is way more important for your kids than a good school. We are told that we are incapable of raising our children without the aid of the HS, and that is so true. One thing that is important is that we have to remember the role of the dad's, b/c I know children that were/are homeschooled and haven't left the sight of their parents (BTW please read child guidance) for years and when they did, they are wonderful kids. Why? B/c BOTH parents were actively involved in their lives and helped to shape their characters.... so it must work.

I am so enjoying this thread , I haven't been offended by anything, and I hope that I haven't hurt anyones feelings. As I have said, I feel very strongly about this, we are supposed to be preparing our children for eternity, and no teacher can do that. We are told that GOD will ask us "where is the flock, the beautiful flock that I gave thee?" My guess is that HE isn't going to be interested in what schooled we sent them too.....

Your DMIL

Lynelle wrote:

I am so enjoying this thread , I haven't been offended by anything, and I hope that I haven't hurt anyones feelings. As I have said, I feel very strongly about this, we are supposed to be preparing our children for eternity, and no teacher can do that. We are told that GOD will ask us "where is the flock, the beautiful flock that I gave thee?" My guess is that HE isn't going to be interested in what schooled we sent them too.....

Your DMIL

Woohoo! We can discuss things calmly, openly, honestly, and without malice! I knew it was possible!

Lynelle wrote:

As I have said, I feel very strongly about this, we are supposed to be preparing our children for eternity, and no teacher can do that.

I disagree with that statement 150%

*edit* sorry, i disagree with the teacher part... not the preparing our children part.

True True...very CIVIL of us...

Lynelle wrote:

As I have said, I feel very strongly about this, we are supposed to be preparing our children for eternity, and no teacher can do that.

I feel inclined to disagree with this. Here's why: While it is the parents duty to prepare their children for eternity, what about those homes where this is not being done? Are those kids hopeless cases? No. A teacher (friend, mentor, pastor, teacher, etc.) can intervene and help to turn that childs life around. Granted - God is definitely working behind the scenes, but the "teacher" is the visible exponent.

So, in some situations, I believe that a teacher may be able to work to help prepare a child for eternity.

Brian wrote:

Lynelle wrote:

As I have said, I feel very strongly about this, we are supposed to be preparing our children for eternity, and no teacher can do that.

I disagree with that statement 150%

*edit* sorry, i disagree with the teacher part... not the preparing our children part.

OK, you can disagree, now your part is to prove to me that it can happen? Who has the greater influence on a day to day basis then the parent? I know that there are many people that credit their teachers for being a pos. influence in their lives, and that there will be some that are in the kingdom b/c of them. But we are talking general here, not exceptions.... remember GOD made a donkey speak, for a certain purpose, the donkey did not retain that ability. If a parent fails at their duty then GOD will work in another avenue to save that child. But His PERFERRED method is the parents, His ordained method is the parents. How can a person who you may spend 55 minutes with a day (splitting their attention among 20-25 other kids) know when my child is entering into temptation by the look on his/her face? how are they gonna know what my childs weaknesses are and encourage them? How are they gonna know when my child needs either a reprimand or an encouragement? These are the things that shape a character. GOD did not intend for us to be held in bondage to sin, His plan is for the parents to show what sin is, so that the child(ren) doesn't NEED to fall into it. How can a teacher give that kind of attention to each child?

You know the real trouble is that we look at what people are doing and then draw our own conclusions. I HS b/c I believe that I am mandated by GOD to do just that. I also know that their are many ways I could have done it better. But you know it's not the academics that I regret not giving more time too. It's the character stuff, seeing my kids struggle with the same sins that I have had to tells me that I didn't do my job well enough. Thank GOD none of them are druggies, been divorced or have long hair And since I am looking at another 18 years of HS I am re-evaluating how I am going to accomplish this. Did I give my kids the "best" education? (the definition of which I think Brian and I disagree on). Like I said before, by the worls's standards no, but we did give them the TOOLS to persue that education should they want too. And so far two out of the three have done just that. On their own. And we are pretty proud of them. I am constantly amazed at what Tyler knows how to do, and what he can figure out. Could all this have been accomplished if they went to PCS? Who knows for sure. I like to think that their HSing opened up parts of their brains that would not have been had they been stuck in a chair for 6 hours a day. I'm glad that Brian has wonderful memories of school... so do my kids.... I'm sure that Anna remembers well the hours that she spent making daisy chains for the goat kids instead of doing her math! And B. you should be really thankful that Aj learned to cook in HS, that wouldn't have happened in school!

Lynelle wrote:

How can a person who you may spend 55 minutes with a day (splitting their attention among 20-25 other kids) know when my child is entering into temptation by the look on his/her face? how are they gonna know what my childs weaknesses are and encourage them? How are they gonna know when my child needs either a reprimand or an encouragement?

Easy... just like you said, God made a Donkey talk, he can give a teacher the ability to understand the needs of a child. U have to remember, we aren't comparing Public schools, we are talking about christian school. I had several teachers I know did the work of the Lord. I'd get stopped in the hallway by them and would ask if everything was ok and would offer a prayer cause they had a feeling it was something I needed.
I agree that God uses parents, but to say he can't use teachers is like saying a donkey can't talk.