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Brian
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PostSubject: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:03 am

I'm slightly confused.

I was reading 1 Timothy 2, there are some nice worship guide lines. But then I get down to the last part of the chapert : 1 Timothy 2: 11-15

"11Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty."

Not only did it seem sort of out of place with the rest of the chapter, it seems slightly odd. Verse 15 seems very Morman.

So if I understand this properly Men are supposed to be the religious leaders and women are in no way supposed to teach men. If this is true, which it wouldn't be in the bible if it wasn't, how exactly does EG White fit into this? Now I'm confused. scratch

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:19 pm

I think I've heard Doug Batchelor have this discussion before. It's an interesting conversion piece. One could take that to mean that women weren't supposed to play an important role and only sit down and shut up.

But by reading through Bible stories we know that isn't true.

So what is this verse really referring to??

I'm somewhat confused but is this that thing Batchelor was talking about having to do with the cultural worship in the East with men and women sitting on seperate sides and the women always getting up to go ask their husbands questions?? I think that might be another verse though.

I'll do some new studying this week Briton! Thanks!
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Brian
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:35 pm

Don’t drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often. 1 Timothy 5:23
Yet another interesting text pulled from Timothy. How do we discribe this one, I know our stomach's haven't getting any better with time.

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:53 pm

Are you going to bring up the Easter reference also??
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:04 pm

Oh I found something.... in the book Answers to Difficult Bible Texts by Joe Crews:

First is it good to understand that the word for silence in the original Greek does not signify total silence but rather “quietness” and “peacefulness”. It is quite clear from Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 11:5 that women were encouraged to pray and prophesy along with others in the congregation.
In his epistle to Timothy, Paul is addressing the reason for women to exercise only a supportive role in church as far as speaking was concerned. Paul cites the creational model of Adam’s primacy in the home and church. Because of being first in the order of God’s creation, only the man was to be the authoritarian spokesman to the church.
Some have assumed that this counsel was based only on local cultural practices, but the text establishes God’s own order at the time of Creation, before the resulting “curses” were pronounced on Adam and Eve. It is also important to notice that this epistle is specifically written to explain how things should be done in the church. Paul wrote, “These things write I unto thee… that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God.” 1 Tim 3:14,15.
The words of 1 Timothy 2:12 indicate that no teaching or speaking of women in the church should “usurp authority over the man”. Verse 11 says that they should be in “subjection.” Again, this order of authority is not rooted in culture or natural abilities or inferiority but rather upon God’s own order of creation. In verses 11 and 12 we have an inverted parallelism. What is stated positively in verse 11 is restated and amplified negatively in verse 12.
In summary, these verses teach that God established an order of authority for the church, where the man was to be spiritual director and teacher. Women would have important roles involving prayer, prophesying, and worship but were not permitted to exercise spiritual authority, which had been specifically assigned to the man.

Did that help your Ellen White issue any?
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:12 pm

And about the wine issues... from the same book...

The Greek word "oinos," which is translated "wine," may be either fermented or unfermented, depending on the context. But since alcoholic drink is categorically condemned in Proverbs 20:1 and 23:29-32, it is inconceivable that the New Testament church leaders would condone it.
There is nothing in Paul's counsel to Timothy to indicate that this "little wine" was fermented. Since Timothy had an apparent problem of digestion and also other infirmities, teh recommended use of grape juice might well have been an effective dietary supplement.
The Bible writers also recommended teh unfermetned grape juice as a blessing to the body. "Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. The kind of wine that is "in the cluster" in nonalcoholic. Some authorities today urge the drinking of grape juice based on its rapid therapeutic ingestion into the system.

How about that!
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:22 am

Jesse wrote:

In summary, these verses teach that God established an order of authority for the church, where the man was to be spiritual director and teacher. Women would have important roles involving prayer, prophesying, and worship but were not permitted to exercise spiritual authority, which had been specifically assigned to the man.

Did that help your Ellen White issue any?

Once again, it seems like something is out of wack here, EW seems to be an exception to the rule. Only problem with that is it doesn't say not permitted except EW. This seems to be an interesting topic, guess I never really thought much about it before.

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:43 am

But it says prophesying.... you're not making it clear where/what your problem is.

???
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:51 am

Wait a sec... am I even supposed to be listening to what your saying Jess? scratch

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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:13 am

Brian wrote:
Wait a sec... am I even supposed to be listening to what your saying Jess? scratch

ohhh... I loved that one Brian.....

I have been studying this very subject for some time now. It is really facsinating and very eye opening, and also very hard to live out. The explanation that Jess gave was nearest to what I have been studying. God's Word does prohibit women teaching men....not an easy bit of info to swallow, but God has a reason, and that reason goes all the way back to the garden. God created the man first, gave him a home, an occupation and established his authority. Woman was creat to be a helper for her man. Someone that *helps* him by keeping a comfortable home, she *helps* him with his occupation by being encouraging and content with what he provides, she *helps* him build and maintain his athurity by being under it herself and teaching her children to do the same.

Boy, this is SO not what the church teaches us today, but thankfully we still have our Bibles and Gods' Word NEVER changes.

Now... where does this leave EW? I have asked myself this same question. God apparently appointed her a prophet... a name she never called herself. She never held a position of athority in the church... never even held a position actually. I think think that as God had a donkey speak and made water come out of a rock, then He will use whom He will. But for the rest of us ladies that haven't seen an angel or gotten a direct revalation from God, we best follow the blueprint that God has laid out for us in his Word.

my .02.......
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:28 am

well good grief......am I a thread killer or what?
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:35 am

So is this verse more about mental attitude than actual events/activities... what about a women teaching a Sabbath School class?

Where is the line drawn? What about women in the Bible like Deborah? If EGW is an issue for people today why not look at women in the Bible for an example?
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:37 am

I agree with Mr. Crews and Lynelle.... just like I agree w/EGW... it's the putting it onto daily use where I get confused.
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:39 pm

Oh Brian, I know about the wine thing. Not sure if I actually studied on it or if I just read the answer somewhere.

Ever had diarrhea? Well Timothy did, and apparently it was an epic case of it too. It seems back then there were a lot of parasites in the water wherever you traveled and if you didn't put a little wine (yes, I mean fermented) in your water you'd wind up with a case of the screaming runs. If you put the wine in tho, the alcohol would kill the bacteria/parasites and you'd be fine. Paul was simply telling him to put a little wine in his water so he could get off the crapper and go preach. It's not permission to drink alcohol occasionally, he was just telling his friend how to not have the screaming runs.

Now we just use purifiers, so we don't need the wine.

So there.
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Neat to know.
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:12 pm

Jig wrote:
Oh Brian, I know about the wine thing. Not sure if I actually studied on it or if I just read the answer somewhere.

Ever had diarrhea? Well Timothy did, and apparently it was an epic case of it too. It seems back then there were a lot of parasites in the water wherever you traveled and if you didn't put a little wine (yes, I mean fermented) in your water you'd wind up with a case of the screaming runs. If you put the wine in tho, the alcohol would kill the bacteria/parasites and you'd be fine. Paul was simply telling him to put a little wine in his water so he could get off the crapper and go preach. It's not permission to drink alcohol occasionally, he was just telling his friend how to not have the screaming runs.

Now we just use purifiers, so we don't need the wine.


and....um.... is there a reference on this little bit of info? or was this just a way for you to be able to talk about doodoo again? PickOn

So there.
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:30 am

Also, don't fermented drinks cause the exact same problem that the wine was trying to fix? But if you think about it, it does make since.

Now we are way more advanced, we have things like MSG and Yellow #5 to fix our problems, no need for evil wines.

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PostSubject: Re: Women   Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:42 pm

It is believed that 186,216 soldiers died of a variety of different illnesses during The Civil War. Union Army records show that a large number of its soldiers died from diseases caused by contaminated food and water. This included diarrhea (35,127), typhoid (29,336) and dysentery (9,431).

I think could have used this little tid bit of info.

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PostSubject: Re: Women   Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:54 pm

Heh. I think they would have just used the alcohol to feel better as they died.
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:09 pm

brian... you are a veritable fount of obscure statistics........
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PostSubject: Re: Women   Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:17 pm

We need to get his pale pasty butt on Jeopardy! Reppin the Holler!
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