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Jesse
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PostSubject: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:31 am

I don't know that this belongs in the "religious" section, but we talked about it some in prayer meeting last night.

Tom Homer was in charge of the study and he did an awesome job. We were starting in on the chapter about Wycliffe and he gave great history and back ground for the time period and also made it applicable for us now.

What he also informed us of, which I had heard a little bit about but didn't understand all the way, was that as of 2006 "habeas corpus" was done away with and we're now basically living under cannon law.

What is habeas corpus?
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm

What is cannon law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law_(Catholic_Church)

So what does all that mean??
You can be arrested, tried, imprisoned indefinitely, or executed without ever knowing who your accuser is or what you're being charged with. Basically it's the same rules used by the Catholic Church during the inquisition.

Our government instituted this in the name of homeland security. Our 1st amendment rights are basically gone all in the name of freedom.

Even other "catholic" countries are shocked that the US did this. That laws like that could be established in a modern, civil society.

So what do you think about all this?
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Amanda
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:31 pm

Well, I plan to do further research on this, but I’m not convinced that what you were told at prayer meeting is completely true. Here is why:

I looked up, and read, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA). In it, there are definitions provided for those that the government and military can try through a military commission. These definitions are:


Section 948a. Definitions

“In this chapter:
“(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—(A) The term ‘unlawful enemy combatant’ means—
“(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associates forces); or
“(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.
“(B) CO-BELLIGERENT.—In this paragraph, the term ‘co-belligerent’, with respect to the United States, means any State or armed force joining and directly engaged with the United States in hostilities or directly supporting hostilities against a common enemy.
“(2) LAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT.—The term ‘lawful enemy combatant’ means a person who is—
“(A) a member of the regular forces of a State party engaged in hostilities against the United States;
“(B) a member of a militia, volunteer corps, or organized resistance movement belonging to a State party engaged in such hostilities, which are under responsible command, wear a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry their arms openly, and abide by the law of war; or
“(C) a member of a regular armed force who professes allegiance to a government engaged in such hostilities, but not recognized by the United States.
“(3) ALIEN.—The term ‘alien’ means a person who is not a citizen of the United States.

Now, with that, I continued to read about the process of trying these individuals in a military commission. Here are some excerpts from what I read:

Section 948q. Charges and specifications

“(a) CHARGES AND SPECIFICATIONS. —Charges and specifications against an accused in a military commission under this chapter shall be signed by a person subject to chapter 47 of this title under oath before a commissioned officer of the armed forces authorized to administer oaths and shall state—
“(1) that the signer has personal knowledge of, or reason to believe, the matters set forth therein; and
“(2) that they are true in fact tot he best of the signer’s knowledge and belief.
“(b) NOTICE TO ACCUSED.—Upon the swearing of the charges and specifications in accordance with subsection (a), the accused shall be informed of the charges against him as soon as practicable.

Section 948s. Service of Charges

“The trial counsel assigned to a case before a military commission under this chapter shall cause to be served upon the accused and military defense counsel a copy of the charges upon which trial is to be had. Such charges shall be served in English and, if appropriate, in another language that the accused understands. Such service shall be made sufficiently in advance of trial to prepare a defense.

Section 949d. Sessions

“(b) PROCEEDINGS IN PRESENCE OF ACCUSED.—Except as provided in subsections (c) and (e), all proceedings of a military commission under this chapter, including any consultation of the members with the military judge or counsel, shall —
“(1) be in the presence of the accused, defense counsel, and trial counsel; and
“(2) be made a part of the record.

[Subsection (c) states that if a vote is to take place only the members may be present. Subsection (e) states if the accused persists in conduct that justifies exclusion from the courtroom, even after warning from the judge, the accused can be excluded from the proceedings.]

From what I can gather, it seems that the above-mentioned guidelines follow very closely to the court proceedings that are in place in the US now, and have been for some time.

Okay, after all of that, I continued to read until I got to pages 36 and 37, which is where I found the only mentions of habeas corpus. Basically, the change to habeas corpus only affects 28 USC 2241(e), where the prior subsections (e) added are stricken and a new subsection (e) is added. In short,


Under the MCA, the law restricts habeas appeals for only those aliens detained as enemy combatants, or awaiting such determination. Left unchanged is the provision that, after such determination is made, it is subject to appeal in U.S. Court, including a review of whether the evidence warrants the determination. If the status is upheld, then their imprisonment is deemed lawful; if not, then the government can change the prisoner's status to something else, at which point the habeas restrictions no longer apply.

(Wikipedia, 2007).

The rest of 28 USC 2241 concerning habeas corpus remains unchanged and in effect. From that, it seems that claims or our rights as US citizens being taken away are erroneous. While I can see the concern that exists, it seems (to me) to be slightly unfounded.

Now, I could be wrong about my determination, so if anyone has further information or proof to offer, please let me know so I can do some more looking. If anyone is interested in reading the MCA, here’s the link:


http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:36 pm

I'll keep researching too. But we know it's the beginning of the closing of the light... we're headed back to the days prior to the signing Magna Carta.
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Amanda
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:09 pm

Jesse wrote:
I'll keep researching too. But we know it's the beginning of the closing of the light... we're headed back to the days prior to the signing Magna Carta.

I don't disagree that we are nearing the beginning of the end. But at the same time, I think we need to be extremely vigilant in not "buying into" every doomsday prediction and evil government theory that comes along. Just because it sounds horrible doesn't mean it's true. We need to research it for ourselves.

And Jesse - the above statement isn't directed at you...I mean it for all of us. Just wanted to clarify that. Smile

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:35 pm

Actually I'm in a good mood this week and didn't take that personally at all... I too want to have facts to back stuff up so atleast I can say I told people as much truth as I knew.... I don't want to go around spreading false stuff either.
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:45 pm

Just a slight correction, we are already IN the time of the end. We entered into that in 1844. That said, I agree that we are not to enter into evty conspiracy theory that comes along. But there is a small bit of light in what Tom Homer said. After all, in order for a conspiracy to be believed, there has to be some plausible truth in it. We know from inspiration that our rights will be taken form us, we know that the final events "will be rapid ones." As I was reading Amanda's post, I was thinking, well, determining the status of a prisoner, or changing it will take a long time. But we are told things will happen very quickly, so while we may have all the facts about something, lets keep our eyes on the big picture, on Jesus and the inspired facts that Jesus is coming very soon.
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:22 pm

A few sites that Tom directed me to. According to the Military Commissions Act that was signed last year habeas corpus is erased... I think it's the second link that gives you an idea of what that means for our Bill of Rights.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/page/2/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321167/


Some quotes from the 3rd link:
We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to Benjamin Franklin that “those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who may now, if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens “unlawful enemy combatants” and ship them somewhere—anywhere -- but may now, if he so decides, declare you an “unlawful enemy combatant” and ship you somewhere - anywhere.

And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented immigrant or an “unlawful enemy combatant”—exactly how are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you think this attorney general is going to help you?
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:29 pm

Don't forget we already know the Vatican doesn't like the US Constitution.


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/66691/habeas_corpus_why_youll_miss_it_when.html


"The Past
The writ of habeas corpus is so central to the foundations of our western system of law, that it was referenced in the Magna Carta in 1215. It was so fundamental to basic liberty, that the founding fathers enshrined it in the Constitution. Not only does our Constitution specifically guarantee the right of prisoners to challenge their detention with the writ, but the Constitution also specifically prohibits the suspension of habeas corpus except in "cases of rebellion or invasion."

"The Future
The war we face now is is neither limited by duration nor geographic scope. We fight against a tactic and a radical ideology; our own President has promised us it will go on for decades. And yet, he proposes to have the power to name any person an enemy combatant, and hold them indefinitely, without access to even challenge their detention in a court of law. He proposes to hold people, without trials or judicial oversight of any kind, for decades - maybe forever."
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: ummmm   Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:38 pm

This might not effect us now, but we should be aware of the darkness that are country is quickly falling into. This will effect all Bible believing Christians in the future.
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