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Jesse
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PostSubject: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:25 pm

I would like to debate/discuss abortion. I thought we would all have the same views anyway but Gavin said "you never know".

I think any form of abortion is wrong. But then I heard someone (tv/radio I can't remember) say something about cases of rape and incest.

And I thought... well.... Question

And Gavin said, it's still murder/killing, no matter how the conception came about. And I thought, true, and having the abortion isn't going to get rid of the memory of the rape or incest, it's not a fix all.

I don't have anything against anyone who's had one. People in my family have and I still love them and I know Jesus still loves them.

So I'm wondering if any of you have ever thought about this issue before and also relating to rape/incest incidents that result in conception.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:59 pm

The abortion topic is probably one of the hottest topics to discuss. In the case of rape and incest, people tend to get into situational ethics and justify their positions.

In my opinion, the issue of having an abortion regardless of the circumstances, falls back into what the God's Word has to say about it, and I believe it falls under the "Thou shall not kill". Life begins with conception. The Lord has blessed each one of us with life and the ability to share that life with another. He said to be fruitful and multiply.

There have been murder cases where the person charged with killing a pregnant woman, was also charged with the murder of the unborn infant. How then can the medical profession continue to perform these procedures, when they take an oath to preserve life.
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:27 pm

How deep on this abortion issue do you want to go? If life begins at conception, then you would have to also take a good long hard look at birth control. I'll explain my views further if you like.

I am against abortion, I am against birth control. According to the Bible, God has already named our children.... who are we to stop them from being born?

I will warn you all that I feel very strongly about this subject. I believe that women are buying the lies of satan and are not using their bodies for what God intended them for. Women are limiting the amount of children, whether by abortion or BC, and therefore they are denying the Lord of an army of workers fitly trained. If we were doing the job that God gave us to do, then we could hasten the return of Jesus and we would be raising children in the kingdom.

So there............I'll have more to say latter.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:55 pm

Its the greatest modern invention we have ever created. It helps to control the population of morons we have in the world. Personaly we should consider half the people prisons as infants and we should be allowed to abort them to. I think its a great thing... I just wish it was used alot more then it is.

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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:11 pm

I would say tell me more Lynelle but I don't want to cause my husband any more grief. He's happiest when I'm not talking about having another baby.

What about family planning though? And not having more children than you can afford?
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:14 pm

Brian wrote:
Its the greatest modern invention we have ever created. It helps to control the population of morons we have in the world. Personaly we should consider half the people prisons as infants and we should be allowed to abort them to. I think its a great thing... I just wish it was used alot more then it is.

I dunnoe 'bout that Bri.... seems to me that there's plenty of morons runnin' around..............
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:15 pm

Show me where there is "family planning" in the Bible............
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:22 pm

They didn't have that option back then.... there are a lot of things we have options for now that they didn't have back then... (speaking of BC now and not abortion)
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:02 pm

Lynelle wrote:
I dunnoe 'bout that Bri.... seems to me that there's plenty of morons runnin' around..............

I know, that's what I was trying to tell you... there should be alot more abortions, it would help with the problem!

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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:33 am

Jesse wrote:
They didn't have that option back then.... there are a lot of things we have options for now that they didn't have back then... (speaking of BC now and not abortion)

Of course they had options.. there have always been herbs that are called abortificants that have been used as BC... it's just that wasn't God's plan for His people. Still isn't.
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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:14 am

My thought is that using BC isn't abortion b/c you're not killing b/c there isn't any life to begin with.

If it is still a moral issue it just needs a differnt name but I have to disagree with it being classified as abortion.

If God knows the name of our children he also knows ahead of time if we're going to be using BC. I think if God wanted someone using BC to have a baby then they would.... didn't we learn that from Ginny?

Am I frustating you? (no Brian I'm not asking b/c I would change my statement if Lynelle said "yes")
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:49 pm

Lynelle wrote:
Jesse wrote:
They didn't have that option back then.... there are a lot of things we have options for now that they didn't have back then... (speaking of BC now and not abortion)

Of course they had options.. there have always been herbs that are called abortificants that have been used as BC... it's just that wasn't God's plan for His people. Still isn't.

I'm sorry Unkanell this mode of thinking just doesn't fly with me. Why are there no levitical laws about the use of BC herbs? They were obviously in wide use by the jewish nation during that time yet I don't see any banning of them.

The bible says not to put yourself away from your wife for long periods of time, so do you expect every family to just have a kid for every year between marraige and menopause? I know that you'll probably talk about the cycle method, and that it's what God planned, but it's almost useless now that we (humans) have degenerated physically so far. Do you know of any more women who's cycles are perfectly timed to the lunar phases anymore? How many women do you know who have perfectly timed cycles?

Bottom line is that people who are married and don't use birth control are parents, and if they continue to "live out God's plan" as some people put it, the women wind up pale, dried out, stressed out husks like I see every year at family camp. The husbands are working themselves to death trying to feed 5-7 kids while the mothers health is obviously deteriorating with each additional child after the 3rd or 4th.

EW says that women shouldn't have huge amounts of children, but according to your plan all would be forced to either not share the marraige bed or be condemned to being baby factories and with very likely suffer health-wise because of it. I know you feel very strongly about BC but until you can show me in the bible or spirit of prophecy that it's a sin to use it, then you're wrong.

So show me Very Happy
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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:48 am

Threw out your "pale dried up husks of women" card again eh Jig? That is a favorite phrase of your isn't it? Or at least something like it. I'm sitting here trying to remember any women looking like that at FC this year... and we had quite a few with large families come. Nope... can't think of any. The only one that I can think of that was pale was the Southerland mom... she has 6-7 , but she is blond and fair skinned anyway. I know more than a few women that have many children and none of them look as you describe..... Maybe you need to pick on different people.

No... to answer the rest of your personnal opinion post.... How was the use of BC "widely in use" during biblical times? Maybe you could point me to a few references that qualify this statement? And there is a method of BC that God DOES approve of... abstinance, and you can read about this method in Leviticus, where it deals with the women and when she has her period. During this time the woman was to leave the home and then for a week after she was considered "unclean" and no marital relations were to take place. So that left a grand total of two weeks of the month for sex. In the Jewish economy children were very precious and they wouldn't use anything to stop them from having them. In Ex.1:15,17 we read that the king of Egypt told the midwives to kill the male babies as they were born. The midwives refused... why? Because "the midwives i]FEARED[/i] God. Want to know why? Because they knew that those babies belonged to God, as in "children are a heritage of the Lord."


Again I know women that have babies every two years or so, spaced as God wants them. I also know women that are spaced even farther apart, but still have more than the national 2.8 children. As for husbands and wives that are counseled to not withhold themselves from their spouses,that was given in reference to long periods of fasting, not vacating the marraige bed. It wan't talking about voluntary abstinence. The only reference that I have come across about BC in the BIble was in Gen, 38:9. And God was not pleased... so much so that he killed the man that practiced it. However the Bible has many, many verses that pertain to having large families. So much so that it would seem obvious to anyone that reads it. And it is pretty much silent on the matter of BC.... so does that mean that God approves of it? Wouldn't bet my life on it. It's fairly dangerous to build an arguement on what the Bible doesn't say.

Now as for the SOP, yes, it does say that men should not burden his wife with continual childbearing. But the principle behind that was to address uncontrolled passion by the husband. Her counsel was for the men to practice some self-control... not to use BC. If so then I am sure that there would have been counsel on that for us, since again, it was available.

Problem is we want everything when we want it, no self control no self denial. BC makes it very easy for us to not have to deal with the cause and effect. But again is it Gods plan for us? When He told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion over the earth, why is that any different from us? Do we have to have large families to accomplish this? Sara and Abraham had 1 and look what God did for them.

So you said I am wrong... you told me to prove it...I'll throw it back in your lap since you are not going to agree with me... Show me in the Bible and/or SOP where it says it's ok to use it. Show me where it says that it is ok to permanently cut off our ability to have children. Show me where it says that we know better than God as to what our families and homes should be like.


So show me.........

If you like I will post the multiple verse that talk about having large families and the blessings from God that come with them.
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Jig
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:24 pm

I do agree with some of the things that you've said of course, but at the same time I think we still need to take them in context.

Yes the verse about not putting away your wife was about fasting, it said do not put away your wife for any long period except for fasting and prayer. That means that God doesn't want people to be married and basically stay celibate. Right?

As for self control I agree, we shouldn't be overtaxing ourselves by partaking too much

You're right I can't prove that the Israelites used the BC herbs, I assumed that since the Egyptians most likely used them that the Israelites picked up on it too.

Where was the man rebuked/killed for having his wife use them?

The main problem I have with the "natural child control" is that it seems like something mormons and catholics do to restrict their women's ability to choose whether to have children or not. The "it's the will of God" excuse has been used for so many atrocities against women throughout history that I'd like to see real biblical and/or SOP to argue for it.

So yeah, please put the verses on here so I can take a look at them and we'll talk more about them.

SOP talks about how some people who should never have children even though they are married. How exactly would they handle that without being celibate then? And where does the woman's health come into it in your view? You said that you've seen women who have children every 2 years, so does that mean that if they go through menopause when they're 60 and they got married when they're 20, that they are supposed to have 20 children?

Why aren't you having any more children? With all the advances we've had in reproductive technology you should be able to have at least a couple more.

I'm just afraid that you have such a strong opinion on this that you're projecting what you perceive as an evil/sin on other people as biblical law. I've seen this done so many times being an SDA that I'm kinda sensitive to it. Someone finds something that they perceive as biblical law and because that's the way they see it they attempt to inflict it on others telling them that they're sinning if they don't follow this new light. I'm not arguing this side because I think uncontrolled passions among married couples should be encouraged, nor do I think BC should be used as a rule and that it's even necessarily a good thing for women physically. I just want to make sure that what you're stating is sin is backed wholly by the bible and SOP and not just an opinion you have.

Remember that one overzealous person has the ability to inflict far more damage on the world through their influence than an entire community can fix. If we put forth a viewpoint to the world than it should be grounded in biblical fact, otherwise we might as well be telling them that we don't believe in electricity, ya know?
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Bethie
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:21 pm

I couldn't resist...

Okay...this is really two subjects.
Birth Conrtol and Abortion.

Abortion:
I don't have much to say on this, i just think its wrong. I don't know, though, if there is ever a cirrcumstance where its ok...but then i've never been in a situation where i've really had to think of it.

Birth Control: MY Opinion...(note that i am only stating what I believe)
I don't think its wrong.
Lets see, where to start...well i know that if i did not have an IUD or use BC during the beginning of our marriage that i would have had several children by now at the very least. After having Duncan, i had severe PPD. Just thinking about the things i thought and felt at that time makes me cry. It made me miss the first 3 months of my childs life, it was excruciatingly horrible and i never want to go through it again. So should i just say, oh well, God will help me next time?
Should i have the IUD removed and just say, well, if God wants me to have another, i will?

Apart from that, we can't afford another child.

And yes, what about E. G. Whites words on not having a family too large for you to care for?
The Adventist Home: Size of the family: (pg162)There are parents who, without consideration as to whether or not they can do justice to a large family, fill their houses with these helpless little beings, who are wholly dependant upon their parents for care and instruction...This is a grievous wrong, not only to the mother, but to her children and to society...
Before increasing their family, they should take into consideration whether God will be glorified or dishonored by their bringing children into the world.
In view of the responsibility that develops upon parents, it should be carefully considered whether it is best to bring children into the family. Has the mother sufficient strength to care for her children? And can the father give such advantages as will rightly mold and educate the child? How little is the destiny of the child considered!
(pg163)Parents should not increase their families any faster than they know their children can be well cared for and educated. A child in the mother's arms from year to year is great injustice to her It lessens, and often destroys, social enjoyment and increases domestic wretchedness. It robs their children of that care, education, and happiness which parents should feel it their duty to bestow upon them.
(pg164)When you see that a large family will severly tax your resourses, when you see that it is giving the mother her hands full of children, and that she has not time intervening between their births to do the work every mother needs to do, why do you not consider the sure result?

Now, we could say she was only speaking to those that are not able to care for children yet are still having them, but if thats so...then what do you think she would suggest to them? Abstinance? This is a real question. Did Ellen White talk about BC? I haven't been able to find anything so far, but i would be interested in knowing what book/page/section whatever where i can find it.

But you know, we see Brandon little enough as it is, if we had 4, 5, 6 kids, we would NEVER see him, he'd be working 3 jobs just to pay for them! Which of course would be eliminating the head of the household from the raising of the children which EG White also warns against.

So is it OUR responsibility to populate Gods army or try our hardest to train the ones we DO have? And if we were to have another, would they suffer because we wouldn't be able to train two as well as one?

So it pretty much looks like abstinance is the only answer...but wait, isn't that kinda going against Gods wishes too, then? Thats pretty much the same thing as BC. And if it IS the answer, someone else is telling my husband! Laughing

I think that people had such large families back in Bible times because they were more able to cope with and care for the children. I mean DUH....they had MAIDS!!!!!!! Tons of help! Heck, they had older kids that could care for the younger ones! I certainly know that WE can't afford a maid/nanny to help out! Can you?
I mean, atleast in the beginning of the Bible you read about tons of women that eventually would send their maids in to be with their husbands if they weren't having enough kids...would we do that today? PFFTTT!!!! I don't think so!!!!! (although Brandon DOES comment about these happenings often Rolling Eyes )

I know that I would not be able to handle the care, education and spiritual welfare of an additional child. So wouldn't it be irresponsible of me to risk having another?

God is past, present (is that the right sp?), and future. I'm pretty sure He knew we would only be bringing Duncan into this world, and whos to say that He wanted us to have more???

I think adoption is a better idea than just having more kids. There are SO many kids out there that need happy, loving, God fearing homes. THEY are already here and need desperately to be lead to God.

Hmm...i guess thats it, so in closing, i leave you with this thought,
"If everyone using BC were sinning, does that mean they are going to hell? And if it does, how many people do YOU know that will NOT be in Heaven?" Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:44 pm

But whose to say that God doesn't want you to have more. By using an IUD your killing the embyro, and taking it into to you own hands, so doesnt that mean your kind of playing God? and no you cannot convince me that an IUD doesnt do that...I've read what it does...of and if by some chance you do get pregnant with an IUD, its going to be implanted into your childs head. So not only will you have the added financial burden of another child, you will also have the added stress of dealing with a handicapped child. Be careful what you say you will not do, because a lot of times it comes back...So you say you think adopting is the way to go, well if you concerned about the costs, its going to be a lot more to adopt then to just have another one....
But anyhoos...BC in general does mess with your system, and I actually know this for a fact, its not just my opinion, because yes I have done my research. Once a woman goes off of it, she has a hard time conceiving....but anyhoos....


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Jesse
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:01 pm

Anna, not sure what your definition of an embryo is but there's no fertalization going on when one has an IUD.

I researched IUD's for almost a year (online, talking to people who had them in the past and currently, and talking to my OB/GYN) before deciding it was the safest, healthiest for of BC I could use. The IUD's of today are much improved over what they were several decades ago. And it's not the IUD being in your babies head that one has to worry about... it's the baby growing in your tubes that is the real danger. That however outweighed the other alternatives.

Bottom line... IMO... if it's not a life (and of course we believe, or maybe it's just me, that life begins at conception) then you're not killing. If preventing pregnancy with BC is abortion then so is abstaining... if you abstain then you're also preventing conception and playing God aren't you??

We're expect to be in some sort of control of our lives... we don't let the wind decide what we're going to do each day (unless we fly in hotair balloons). I think the reason that this topic isn't directly discussed in SOP is b/c it's a personal decision between husband and wife as to what is best for their family.

Ooopsss... have to fix dinner and rush off to prayer meeting!
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:57 am

Mod response: For those that would like further information on the IUD, or would like to add further information on other forms of birth control - please see the general public forum. Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:38 am

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