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 If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...

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Anna
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PostSubject: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:38 pm

“Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.” James 4:17

Is there sin in your refrigerator? This is a question that I have been personally struggling with, because of a recent conversation Jason had with his mother. I just would like to see other people’s point of view.
There are many quotes of EGW’s to show us what we are counseled on, but I am only sharing a few which pretty much sum up what she has to say. (And as one of my favorite saying goes”None of it’s good.”)

Counsels on Diet and Foods on page 368
"Cheese should never be introduced to the stomach." (1868 2T pg 68)

"Butter is less harmful when eaten on cold bread, than when used in cooking; but as a rule, it is better to dispense with it altogether. Cheese is still more objectionable; it is wholly unfit for food" (1905 M. H. 302)

Now, okay the argument may come, what about the bicycle, not everything is relevant for us today! (Referring to the fact she counsels us not to buy bicycles because of their great cost) True, but, if cheese was not good for you then, before they had all those wonderful hormones and pesticides that our dairymen are injecting into the cows, then why would it be good for you now.

Second argument it’s the health message, that’s not as important as the rest of the things we need to know right now. We need to major in the major issues, not the minor ones...Here are a few more quotes.

There are matters not usually included in the study of physiology that should be considered--matters of far greater value to the student than are many of the technicalities commonly taught under this head. As the foundation principle of all education in these lines, the youth should be taught that the laws of nature are the laws of God--as truly divine as are the precepts of the Decalogue. The laws that govern our physical organism, God has written upon every nerve, muscle, and fiber of the body.
197
Every careless or willful violation of these laws is a sin against our Creator. {Ed 196.3}
How necessary, then, that a thorough knowledge of these laws should be imparted! The principles of hygiene as applied to diet, exercise, the care of children, the treatment of the sick, and many like matters, should be given much more attention than they ordinarily receive. {Ed 197.1
We have no right wantonly to violate a single principle of the laws of health.-- R. and H., 1884, No. 31. {HL 18.4}

It is the duty of every human being, for his own sake and for the sake of humanity, to inform himself or herself in regard to the laws of organic life, and conscientiously to obey them. . . . It is the duty of every person to become intelligent in regard to disease and its causes. You must study your Bible, in order to understand the value that the Lord places on the men whom Christ has purchased at such an infinite price. Then we should become acquainted with the laws of life, that every action of the human agent may be in perfect harmony with the laws of God. When there is so great peril in ignorance, is it not best to be wise in regard to the human habitation fitted up by our Creator, and over which he desires that we shall be faithful stewards? -- U. T., Dec. 4, 1896. {HL 19.5}

Okay now ya’ll discuss…
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:01 am

whoo boy.... the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it? Anna has brought up a good point, and for those of us that need more that what is written in SOP, here are some facts. WARNING Soapbox The hormone that is gioven to cows to produce more milk is called BGH. It always causes large infections at the injection sight, because a huge amount is given at one time, normally once a month. It also causes mastitis, an infection in the udder that is almost impossible to cure. The USDA allows a certain amount of this infection to be in the milk. It's called a "somatic cell count." This measures not only the infection, but also the amount of blood and pus that is in the milk. Dairymen have to test for this often, but when a farmer tests with a high amount, the milk in question has already entered the food chain. This is the reason why we no longer have local dairy's.... when milk is combined with other dairy's, then it's difficult to trace where it comes from.

Another deadly problem with this hormone is that not only does it enter the milk, but of course it is in the meat. Is there any wonder why there has been an increase of breast cancer? And those who are taking estrogen or HRT's are seriously at risk. This is not a rant from a crazy vegetarian.... everyone should do their own studying and find out what is going into their mouths. Cheese also has a double whammy.... not only is it made with BGH milk, but the bacteria used to culture the cheese is genetically engineered.... and not just some of the cheese, but ALL of it made in the good ole' USofA. It is impossible to culture enough bacteria to make all the cheese that americans consume.... besides there's more profit in selling pork, beef and lamb innards to the pharmceutical companies (another rant that I will foist upon you at another time Very Happy ) so a GE culture is cheap. So think it's just milk in your cheese? Guess again...

I am concerned about what my kids eat. I want them to have clear minds so that they can discern the voice of the Holy Spirit. I do not want their bodies to be polluted with pig, mice or monkey genes.... Our food becomes what we are, the food that we eat becomes the nutrients that feed our cells. If our cells are starving for sound nutrition then they will accept what is available. Do you want your kids DNA messed with? And if you think that this is ludicris, then sit and ponder why there are generations of alcoholics or substance abusers.... it's in the genes....

Ok. I'm of my soapbox..... for now.......
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:02 am

Cheese you say?

I ask why just pick one thing, about 99% of the food at the store we shouldn't consume. The list of things that are bad is a million times longer then the list of things that we should eat. So why just pick on cheese? Why not potato chips, or chocolate, or the non organic vegies?

So we can eat clean meat, but we can't eat by-products from the clean meat?

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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:08 am

Brian wrote:
Cheese you say?

I ask why just pick one thing, about 99% of the food at the store we shouldn't consume. The list of things that are bad is a million times longer then the list of things that we should eat. So why just pick on cheese? Why not potato chips, or chocolate, or the non organic vegies?

So we can eat clean meat, but we can't eat by-products from the clean meat?

save the clean meat for another topic.....and you are right Brian, there is so much junk out there that we are consuming as "food." But that is the reason why we have counsel (from God) to live in the country and grow our own food... as much as we can. We are also told to eat food as closely as we can to how it was grown. That would eleminate everything on your list there........

we can talk about potato chips and chocolate next if you want Wink
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:21 am

Lynelle wrote:
We are also told to eat food as closely as we can to how it was grown. That would eleminate everything on your list there........

Like you said, we are told, we might listen, but very few act. And for the majority, if they eat one good thing, there are several others that are bad.

I have really been burnt on this topic... I agree we should eat healthy, and we are what we eat. But I've never meet ANYONE that eats right.
I've been feed all this bull about how everything is bad, but the exact same people that proclaim everything is bad, still scarf down the fretos, cheese and ranch on their haystacks at potluck. Oh and don't get me started on the "Fake" foods, thats the biggest bunch of "bad word" ever.

Sorry... very sore subject!

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Lynelle
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:41 am

[quote="Brian"]
Lynelle wrote:
We are also told to eat food as closely as we can to how it was grown. That would eleminate everything on your list there........

Like you said, we are told, we might listen, but very few act. And for the majority, if they eat one good thing, there are several others that are bad.

I have really been burnt on this topic... I agree we should eat healthy, and we are what we eat. But I've never meet ANYONE that eats right.
I've been feed all this bull about how everything is bad, but the exact same people that proclaim everything is bad, still scarf down the fretos, cheese and ranch on their haystacks at potluck. Oh and don't get me started on the "Fake" foods, thats the biggest bunch of "bad word" ever.



But aren't you glad Brian that YOU are the only one that has to answer for YOUR actions? You will not be held accountable for what anyone else has/had put on their plate! Good news huh? So all you have to do is live up to the light that you have, and do what is right! Not doing what we are told to do because no one else is doing it is not an excuse that will be accepted. And I am sure that you know how hard it is to do the right thing. For many there are years of old habits that must be broken or prefernce of tastes that need to be overcome.....You refered to it as "bull," I'm guessing that you have done some research into it and have found some good reasoning behind continuing to eat stuff that isn't good for us? But you know, if satan can't get us into one ditch, he'll push us off into the other.....the best thing to do is keep our eyes on our own plates and encourage one another.

So next time I see you eat cheese, I will gently and humbly and ever so encouragingly remind you that it contains pus, blood and hormones that will make your breasts grow.......... Wink And you can do the same for me!
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:53 am

I really really hate this topic. I've known people that have left the church because others in the church have looked down on what they ate. Why is it that if you eat right you have a "Holyer then you" out look towards others. Just like you said, if you see me eat cheese your going to remind me.
I'm not against healthy eating, I'm not against doing what is right when it comes to food, I'm against the attitudes that come along with it.

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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:09 pm

Brian wrote:
I really really hate this topic. I've known people that have left the church because others in the church have looked down on what they ate. Why is it that if you eat right you have a "Holyer then you" out look towards others. Just like you said, if you see me eat cheese your going to remind me.
I'm not against healthy eating, I'm not against doing what is right when it comes to food, I'm against the attitudes that come along with it.

apperantly you missed the levity that I was attempting in my last paragraph......

and you brought up an interesting point... but I am going to switch it around.... why do people always assume that people that believe differently about a subject have a "holier than thou" attitude? Because we talk about it? I think that Anna's post is a very valid one because I think that we shuld ALL closely examine why we do things. As for people leaving the church b/c they get their toes stepped on... there has to be a deeper issue than that. B/c this is just not a church... it's a TRUTH that we believe. I can't tell you how many times I have been so ready to leave the "church", because of peoples attitudes and indifference, but I can't because I have no where else to go. We really need to get beyond the surface issues and really dig deep into the motives behind why we do, eat, wear, go to, see, read the things that we do. That night in the courts of Caiphas Peter's real person was laid bare, his real self, the motives of who he was and what he was capable of doing/being was laid open before him. We all need that experince cause the Bible tells us that we will be decieved..... by whom? Ourselves... because we did not have a love of the truth..........

Sorry that you don't like this subject, my attitude is not a holier than thou one, after all you have seen me eat cheese. But NOT ranch dressing, I hate it............
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:16 pm

I definately think I am holier than everyone b/c I baked and ate carob chips cookies last week... they taste like rotten raisens.

Really though... knowing what's right and having a working knowledge of practical application are two different issues... I know what to eat... I don't know how to prepare and make it appealing.

I strive forward for a few days and then fall short for several weeks.. it's a habit.

From a personal experience... when I see someone else doing something that I know I should be doing but I'm not and don't want to, that's when I ususally try to blame them for having a holier than though attitude. Now granted there are occassion when some people actually deserve that label but not always. Sometimes other people are just striving to do what they know is right and they just want their friends and loved ones to do the same thing.

I find it's not that hard to cut out what is bad... it's the adding in what is good part that I stuggle with. Fresh vegetables are a headache to me. What you buy from the store goes bad so quickly and I just don't know what to do with most of it. We might get a fresh salad once a week... twice if I'm feeling really adventurous... then there's baked potatoes, tomatoes & onions (ususally part of a burrito or haystack).

I want to do a better job feeding my family but I don't have the confidence that I know how.
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:11 pm

Go figure. I add MORE cheese to the mac and cheese and Anna reprimands me for it. santa

Alas, though, I agree. On the other hand, I think Jess made a good point: Knowing what you should do and how you should do it are two different things, and it is easy to become discouraged. While EGW has made many practical notes about what and how, they are all things that take time to institute and, in our sinful natures, it is much easier to resolve to do it next week/month/year while you're licking the sour cream off of your finger and doing your best to dispose of (into your stomach) the last genuine chocolate chip cookies in your bread box.

I just read a very interesting article on diet. The psychologist in charge said that when we attempt to change it quickly and without warning that our emotional and physical selves feel starved. We are then even more likely to turn to high-calorie and high-fat foods to "save up" nutrients. The idea that our minds are just as connected to diet as our bodies is not a new one at all, of course...

The key to any change is time, I think (at least this is what all the gurus at the womens magazines say). You need to introduce any lifestyle change slowly. If you go to your refrigerator and throw away all the dairy, or anything else for that matter, you see in it, you will, inevitably, relapse - it may be soon, it may be far in the future, but it happens in one way or another.


I think that rather than lament over what we should not be doing, we should be attempting education -- for ourselves and for the people around us. I think we should be attending and offering cooking classes (and recipes). We should be experimenting -- adding new recipes to our collections (I actually try to try one new thing a month, it usually just has some dairy in it... ). This approach is proactive, as educational endeavors produce the release of all those feel good hormones and things and thus incline you towards continuing since you feel like you're really actually accomplishing something. The key is support: Self-support and community (church or otherwise) support. The door-in-your-face is lecturing, as Bri so gingerly pointed out. It's probably also the reason that so many people have already (at least temporarily) given up.

End of sermon. Don't you feel encouraged? Hee. alien
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:24 pm

I don't know if I agree with your slowly quitting. If you think, unstand and believe something is bad and you want to quit... why drag on what your doing? Relaps is a mental state, you either want to do something, or you don't want to do something. I believe somethings might require a detox period, but the majority of bad foods don't require that time. I think its an excuse to make yourself feel better cause your going to quit, you just havn't yet.

If its bad, quit, don't look back and move on with life. There is no middle ground, you either are one way or the other. If you think there is middle ground then your on the bad side and your just fooling yourself into thinking its ok to just do a little bad.

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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:31 pm

I didn't get to read everything posted because my eyes and head are killing me, but i got the jist.

Your right Brian, in that a lot of people that eat "right" do usually have a holier than thou attitude. I have encountered that many times. But not everyone is like that.

You can tell me all day long that there is disgusting stuff in my food and i'll still eat it. Nothing like that bothers me.
Especially since organic food often has the most discusting stuff. I mean...okay, so you plant a garden...you do realize animals are walking through it pooping on your plants, right? and bugs...thats a duh.

But honestly...we eat healthy except for cheese, and God finally found a way to get us to cut back on it. No, we're not giving it up totally because i don't think its that big of a deal, but Ginnys Death By Cheese was the last thing we ate with cheese in it and that was days ago. So we're trying, but old habits die hard Rolling Eyes .
With Brans Cholesterol being high...we will happily give up cheese if it means a better quality of life.

It really comes down to each individual.
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:36 pm

You mean all those skinny, hunched over SDA's are right? Somehow I'm thinking not.....

There's a happy medium here. I'm not saying eating meat is okay, but unless you're gonna employ an entire neighborhood of spanish day laborers for your garden you're probly gonna have to buy some things at the store.

And hey, on the upside most of those emaciated "health reformers" are not outlawed from being models in Milan due to their low BMI's Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:51 pm

I agree... if it's bad it's bad and you shouldn't eat it/drink it.

But it's all about personal choice. Sometimes I want to eat what's bad.. just cause. Of course I probably didn't consult with Jesus before I made the decision. It's just like it's not our job to convert people... that's the holy spirit's job. You can't guilt trip people into eating healthy. It's their choice.

I would imagine that when it's comes to knowing people that eat healthy that also don't have "holier than thou" attitudes it's probably simply because they don't talk about what they do and don't eat.

Wondering: if someone declines to eat something, does that mean they have an attitude? Why do adventist have to attack other adventist that choose to not eat certain things?
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:01 pm

Jesse wrote:
Wondering: if someone declines to eat something, does that mean they have an attitude? Why do adventist have to attack other adventist that choose to not eat certain things?

I think this only becomes an issue when the attitude is one of those "holier than thou" attitudes that was addressed before. For instance, in the early years at Patmos there were individuals who had that exact attitude. All ingredients were questioned. If a dish was brought to potluck that had egg, milk, or cheese in it, they would turn their noses up, make snide comments about how such things should not be at potluck and make a mini scene about not eating it.

Now on the other hand, I know a lot of people (Adventists and not) that simply choose to not eat dairy. If they are unsure of something, they will simply ask and then quietly make up their minds to take some of whatever it is or not.

Does one often feel the need to attack this second type of person or their reaction? No, usually not. It's the ones similar to what I referred to above.

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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:08 pm

It's so much fun being "holy" people. All the pointless bickering about who's holier than who based on what is eaten.
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:13 pm

Jesse wrote:
It's so much fun being "holy" people. All the pointless bickering about who's holier than who based on what is eaten.

Seems like wasted effort doesn't it? I mean, there are so many other things that could be focused on.

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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:20 pm

Amanda wrote:
Jesse wrote:
It's so much fun being "holy" people. All the pointless bickering about who's holier than who based on what is eaten.

Seems like wasted effort doesn't it? I mean, there are so many other things that could be focused on.

Very much so... but I do appreciate it when some with the right attitude points out to me how I could improve my diet.... such as Anna and Lynelle have done lately. We often get so busy with life that it's easy to forget the basics of personal health.
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:55 am

This is such an interesting topic! If you (we) were told by a Dr. that you only have 2 weeks to live if you don't stop eating cheese (coffee, meat, transfats, etc.) what would you do? Would anyone else's attitude matter? If we could see the end result of our improper eating would we say "it was worth it!". I think not. The same people that have a holier than thou attitude about their diet are the ones that have the same attitude about being out of debt (I owe no man), wearing no jewelry & so on. This is pride & another sin entirely. It's not the particular idea it's the people. And we are all people. I have known many folks that are vegans & eat very well that don't feel the need to crow about it. We can complain & holler "balance" in our diets but the bottom line is that it's only going to get worse. How about cloned meat? They don't have to tell you it's cloned. Next it will move to dairy. Remember when EW said that towards the end butter & eggs will not be fit to eat? What do you want to bet it's the cloning thing? Cheese now is not made like it was in her day but it's still 100% fat. And dairy. So what do we do? Obey? Or not? What's that verse "It is better to obey than...."
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PostSubject: Re: If you dont want to be responsible..Don't read this...   Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:54 am

Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Diet, attire, being debt free. They are all lifestyle choices. Decisions that have to be made every day for the rest of our lives.
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